Discussions on life after your bankruptcy discharge.

Moderators: TalbotWoods, JaneClack

Bycyberelf
#301263 Sorry to repost this, but does anyone knwo how much this costs roughly and do I need a specialist solicitor to handle it?
Beneficial interest was bought by a relative for £1 from the OR a few years ago, we are still in negative equity but after discussion would prefer to have the interest back in our own names.
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ByTalbotWoods
#301283 It need not cost anything, but you are strongly advised to go via a solicitor or you could end up with all the people on the deeds (which you dont want) or no one on the deeds (nightmare scenario) or if all goes well just you.

I beleive the solicitors ensure that the correctly notorious forms are used for notifying the land registry, so if is messes up you have legal redress. So not a huge amount of work, just forms, a notorious and fees.

As to cost, I would think if you find the right solicitors (Try a free initial consultation one first to get to idea of costs) it wont cost much more than it did originally.

Tim
Bycyberelf
#471604 sorry to resurect an ancient thread, but we are only now in a position to actually do this...BUT
after contacting a solicitor they said they needed to know who was on the title record.
So I paid online and downloaded it frm the land registry.
Oddly it shows myself and my wife and the mortgage holders, but no record of the relative that the beneficial interest was supposedly assigned ?

The only restriction on the title reads as follows-

RESTRICTION: no disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate ( except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by the court.

Is this something we should be looking to have removed from the title?

The solicitor now states that there is nothing to buy back as we were always the official owners of the property as no one else has ever registered an interest with the land registry.
But we have a document noted "deed of assignment" here mentioning us, the relative and the official reciever for the solicitor used by the OR.
I am now confused as to what to do, I dotn really want to just leave it then possibly at a later date the relative (god forbid) ends up in financial difficluty and their right to the benficial interest is taken into account???
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ByJaneClack
#471605 Hi - have spoken to an insolvency practitioner today and shown him the whole thread and if you live in England or Wales then this was his reply:

"Yes the beneficial interest is in other person’s hands. Property was in negative equity and that’s why other party bought it for a £1 – standard OR procedure.

It’ll be up to the relative how much it will cost to buy it back. If equity is now significant and relative sells it back for a £1, then relative goes bankrupt – then it’ll be a transaction at undervalue of course. I’d suggest client and relative seek legal advice to ensure the interest is transferred back correctly." A transaction under value can be overturned by the Official Receiver

So you need to speak to the relative and get valuation as well.

Hope that helps!
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ByTalbotWoods
#471606 Hi

Yep most definitely something you need to sort out, and you are going to have to go back to the OR to do this!

When the BI was bought out from the OR, the deed of assignment should have been registered into the Deeds, AND the restriction should have been removed.

As a result you cannot sell (or the relative cannot sell it) because the restriction will effectively stop any sale.

OK looking back at the timings when this happened, this was a time when massive changes were taking place in the service. As a result a lot of 'admin' was over looked, or even worse temp staff were being used left right and centre at the time and they just get it right! Professionally not very good, but it has happened.........

Soooooooo

Email/Write (initially phone to make sure you send the information to the right departments) to the Insolvency Services, asking them to:-

a) Remove the restriction (known as a Form J Restriction, which is removed by the IS using a Land Registry Form RX4)

and

b) either register the Deed, OR with agreement wit all parties, revocation of the assignment

Contact details are here

http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/ ... eneral.htm

Alternatively, contact the orignal ORs office if it is still open, you can find the current offices and contact details here

https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk ... dorsearch/

This is not an overly fast procedure, and they are going to ask for lots of proof especially if the Deed has not been noted on the IS ISCIS Computer system

But you will get there, honest

Tim
Bycyberelf
#471607 well, I have now spoken to someone at the land registry and they have stated that the Restriction listed above is nothing to worry about and has no real effect on the property or possible sale of the property or ownership and could in fact be beneficial in protecting the property in the future ????

Also spoke to the original solicitors that handled the deed of assignment of the benicial interest for the ORand they have stated that all we need to have done is a new "deed of assignment"
and have my relative sign it to sign the property back to us for a nominal sum relative to the current equity or possible negative equity.

Its all getting very confusing and worrying as to what is right and what is not as we now have had several differing opinions from other firms of solicitors that I have contacted to attempt to get a price for producing this document.... several of them seem to know abslutely nothing about these matters and just throw out guess work.
Bycyberelf
#471636 well, I rang the OR and they said that they have no interest in the matter at all at this point and due to the fact that we stayed in the property and were paying the mortgage throughout then the property would never have been transferred to out relative on the title deeds.
The OR stated that all we have to do is have another deed of transfer drawn up ( or as she suggested possibly just download a tamplate from the net) and have it signed and witnessed by all parties involved. As the original transfer was never registred anywhere but with them and all that consisted of was the transfer deed signed by us then a new deed transferring the beneficial interest back to us for a set figure is all we need to do.
The point on the title is according to everyone I have spoked to up to now a normal stipulation on a lot of newer joint mortgages an nothing to do with the BR.
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ByJaneClack
#471639 Well this is a new one on me but if the OR says it then do what he says. We cannot comment any further on this as our advice would be to contact the OR and a solicitor - they are the professionals in this matter and if they are prepared to put this in writing then you should be safe.
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ByTalbotWoods
#471640 Fair Dos.

You have now have spoken to both the OR and Solicitor and both have said the same thing, just hope they picked up that when the property was signed over that the property was already under the restriction of Tenants in Common, and not joint tenants.

So when you sign it back you can only sign it back as Tenants in Common, so the property will not revert back to joint tenancy

The main effects being

Most jointly owned properties in England and Wales, by default, are owned as a joint tenancy. The main legal affect of this is that the joint owners each own 100% of the property and so if one owner dies the other owns the entire property without any further transactions or dispositions. This means that for Inheritance tax purposes the property does not form part of the deceased's estate and does not therefore attract payment of tax.

As Tenants in Common, then at time of death (or other major live point, such as divorce) (or other significant change in government or pension rules) the part owned by the deceased/divorced party will attract full Inheritance Tax, reduce the amount of help available form the government in some care circumstances etc. Additionally at any time either of the Tenants can force the sale of the property. They can also sell or gift their portion of the property, and they can be chased through the courts for their share of equity. A restriction placed on the property can effectively prevent the sale of the property until all debts to that party are paid off in full, often before the sale of property with Tenants in Common.

However, if you want to cancel the Restriction, and revert back to Joint Tenants, then you will need to employ a conveyancer get them to fill in and send off a RX3, along with the supporting evidence required by the land registry. Part of the evidence will be written confirmation from the person/persons/organisation who placed the restriction in the first place.
Bycyberelf
#471642 So, how do i find out how the restriction came about?
It does seem rather too much of a coincidence that the restriction was applied to the title the month after the BR date, which I did bring to the attention of the OR, but she insisted that it was nothing to do with them.. I still find that hard to believe...
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ByJaneClack
#471644 We cannot answer this for you Cyberelf. We have advised the OR and a solicitor - these are the people you need written confirmation from just in case things go wrong later...
Bycyberelf
#471646 but Talbot has just posted that I need written confirmation from the person responsible for placing the restriction on the title, if the OR denies it what else can I do to find out who placed the restriction?
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ByJaneClack
#471647 Was that not the OR when the beneficial interest in the property was part of the bankruptcy?

If not then surely the Land Registry should be able to tell you?
They will have knowledge of this.
Bycyberelf
#471649 the OR told me that it was nothing to do with them, I will give the Land registry another call during the week and see if they can shed any further light on this and post back,
thanks.
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